Posts by moggy lover

32

News flash for Watch Tower!

by Quotes in

jw
friends

(since i suspect i am being watched to ensure my compliance to the terms of the settlement agreement, i thought i would take advantage of the captive audience) .

hey!

watch tower!

Actually, Quotes and the rest of you guys, you are on to something here. A subtle way the WTS uses to inflate the figures. In the 2003 Service Figures which is the last ones I have, the WTS lists 234 lands where they are operating in. Wow!!! impressive is'nt it???? - the problem is that the figures are exaggerated by at least 15 including the ones you listed and which I missed.

I submit the following for your approval:

1 There is a "land" that has all the hallmarks of a geo-political unit - Head of State, one currency one flag. It is called the Netherlands Antilles. It comprises 6 administrative units all united into this one land: Bonaire, Curacao, Saba, St Eustatius, and St Maarten. However the WTS lists all these administrative units SEPERATELY, as if to imply that they are more widespread then they are.

2 Then there is the US Territory [notice the singular?] of The Northern Marianas. This ONE geo-political unit is listed seperately by its three individual areas: Saipan, Tinian, and Rota

3 The Federated States of Micronesia is also one independant country, but made up of 4 seperate states: Kosrae, Pohnpei, Yap, and Chuuk [or Truk] Yup, you guessed it - the WTS lists them all seperately, as if to suggest that they are in four "lands" instead of one

4 The Federation of St Kitts And Nevis is also one united country but is treated seperately.

I think we can safely conclude that either the WTS is woefully ignorant of the world they live in, or they are phoneys trying to impress us with false figures. Perhaps the truth lies in both places - they are ignorant AND phoney!!

Cheers

24

Did Jesus Really Die on a Cross? Awake 4/06

by lostlantern in

jw
friends

this is a recent article in the awake 4/06 issue.

its funny because my husband and i were just discussing this yesterday.

i was having misgivings as to whether or not wearing a cross is bad.

moggy lover

The most difficult problem I have had with the WT explanation for the "torture stake" teaching, is their use of the word "impale" or "impalement" Evidently they are giving to these words meanings that just are'nt there.

For instance, Nuttals Standard Dictionary gives this meaning for impale, impalement: "a putting to death by thrusting a stake into the BODY" [not a putting to death by thrusting nails into the HANDS and FEET" In order to fulfill the WT use of "impalement" Jesus would need to have been pinned to the "stake" by another stake thrust into his stomach, or chest. Hands and feet dont count as "impalement" - at least not in any conventional dictionary that I know of.

There is one authority that the WTS tirelessly uses to try and uphold their position. This is WE Vine. In his Expository Dictionary Of NT Words, he does allow for the word "stake" to translate the NT Greek word "Stauros" - but even he categorically emphasizes that Christ was "crucified" not impaled.

Incidently, the latest edition of Expository words, "The Expository Dictionary of Bible Words" edited by Prof Steven Renn, Dean of Language Studies at Innaburra Bible College, Sydney, NSW, stipulates that "Stauros" means -'' cross throughout the nearly thirty occurrences of the term" Pg 223, Pub by Hendricksons of Peabody, Massachusetts in 2005.

By inventing meanings to words, I submit that the WTS can indeed prove anything. That God's name is Izmee even.

Cheers

66

Is The watchtower Dishonest When It comes to the Trinity?

by RevFrank in

in 1989 the watchtower society published a 32-page booklet entitled "should you believe in the trinity?

" the aim of this publication was to discredit the christian doctrine of the triune nature of god.

the method that the society used to accomplish this goal was to quote from a plethora of resources, both secular and religious, such as dictionaries, encyclopedias, books and historical literature written by individual authors.

moggy lover

The WTS makes a great play about the "fact" that the Bible says "nothing" about the Trinity.

Actually it does have a lot to say on the subject - however - NOT in the way they like to hear it.

Right from the earliest years of the Historic Christian Church, Believers had to face the consequences of what Scripture was revealing and this was that:

1 There was only one God

2 The Father is God

3 The Son who is a man [present tense - 1Tim 2:5] is ALSO God [Jo 1:, Col 2:9 etc]

4 The Holy Spirit is ALSO God [Ac 5:4]

Now: How the hell could these facts be reconciled, and yet hold to the OT perception of God which was unabashedly monotheistic? THIS the Bible did not explicitly say. For reasons best known to Himself the Author of the NT, The Holy Spirit, left it to the Historic Christian Church to figure this out, He was confident, despite the opposition of such men as Sabellius, and Arius, that they would come to the right conclusion. It took them the first 4 centuries of their history to finally work out what the Scriptures really said. In a series of Councils [Nicea -325, Constantinople -381, Chalcedon -451] they promulgated the teaching that has stood the test of time for most of two millennia.

The only way the WTS can maintain its position is by a blatant attempt at dishonesty:

1 Deliberately misrepresenting the Trinity. Most R&F members actually believe that the Trinity teaches that Jesus, if He is God, must therefore be the Father. This is NOT what the Trinity teaches [This is a teaching called Modalism, or Patripassianism, something that the Historic Church rejected] This accounts for some of their more outrageous statements like: If Jesus was praying, was He praying to Himself?

2 Altering the meaning of established Greek words: Begotten means to be created [ it certainly does not] Firstborn means the only one so created [it certainly does not, there is a more appropriate explanation, that fits the meaning] and the most diabolic of all: God does not necessarily mean "God" it can mean simply "a mighty one" [the examples the WTS gives to "prove" this actually employ the plural, "gods" there is NO place in the NT where the absolute, "God" means anything other than "Deity" true or false]

3 Tampering with Scripture and putting in words that the text does not warrant: "Jehovah" in crucial places to draw a false conclusion, "other" in the mistaken appeal that it "clarifies" the text, the use of square brackets [] etc etc

4 Misrepresenting scholarship that disagrees with their conclusions

5 Misrepresenting scholarship that seemingly does agree with them [ When Moffat translated Jo 1:1 as "divine" he simply meant what the word means - the state of being God one only has to read his commentary to find this out]

6 The use of speculative arguments: How can 1+1+1 still equal 1? [Read the history of the Church and find out, buddy]

7 Appealing to so-called reason: If the Trinity is true then why can't you explain it? It must be because it is "unreasonable" No it is simply because it touches on the frontiers of Infinity - an area inaccesable to the human mind Indeed the WTS cannot explain its own tribal deity - If their god is supposedly infinite in time, where did he exist in infinity? I ask this because the WTS, like the Mormons, insist that God has a body, in the case of the WTS it is an invisible one. Yet it is still a body, which means that their tribal god is trapped by space, confined to a local area If that is the case - where the hell did this '' god'' exist BEFORE he created space? If space is eternal then it must mean that there is at least one thing that is beyond him. Imagine one of the 144k asking j hoover esq, "hey dad, where did space come from?" his reply would have to be: "Buggered if I know, mate, I wondered that myself. The bloody thing's been around as long as me.

8 Appeal to "paganism" The Trinity is obviously been derived from "pagan" sources.Hislop, a scholar that the WTS used to quote extensively in the 50s and 60s, proved otherwise. [No wonder they dropped him] He showed that the Trinity was believed in by the earliest forms of religious belief, JUST LIKE the FLOOD, this meant, not that the "pagans" invented the idea, but that , like the flood, there was a kernel of the idea that predated even "paganism" in the beliefs of the earliest man [and woman]

When I left the WTS the last thing that I expexted to believe was the Trinity teaching. But a simple yet honest examination of the Greek, [I certainly do not regard myself anything like a scholar my study involved an 18 month night school of Greek 1] slowly but agonizingly led me to the conclusion that, properly researched, and honestly detirmined a person holding to the NT as it has come down to us, can reach no other conclusion but that God exists in a state or condition that can only be encompassed with the human intellect in the wording of the Trinity.

True it is'nt a perfect explanation.True, it cannot be explained. But then nothing about God ever is "explainable"

If one tries to understand the Trinity he will lose his mind. If he tries to ignore it, he will lose his soul

Cheers

33

May a JW mail carrier deliver mail to a church?

by Bonnie_Clyde in

we've already discussed the 3-15-06 wt about a self-employed contractor not being able to paint one of the churches of christendom.

well read on.

paragraph 13 asks, "what about performing a legitimate service, such as delivering mail everywhere in a community, including places that promote wrong practices?

moggy lover

But 'hang on mate - what about delivering mail to the WORST bunch of all: Known Apostates!!!

If you, a mighty witness for the WTS, knew that I lived at this adress would you deliver my mail hmmmm????

Or would you gather your robes around you like the pious Levite of the Good Samaritan parable, and with quivering self righteousness so as not to be contaminated, move on to the next residence???

Sheese..........I dunno know dont these buggers EVER learn??

Cheers

12

Watchtower admits JW's teach a different gospel

by yaddayadda in

feb 1, 2006 watchtower, page 25, para 14:.

"that issue of the watch tower further stated: "in 1920,...bible students came to a correct understanding of our lord's prophecy contained in matthew 24:14. they then realized that 'this gospel' which was to be preached in all the world for a testimony to the gentiles or all nations, was not a gospel of a kingdom yet to come but a gospel to the effect that the messianic king has begun his reign over the earth.

[emphasis mine].

moggy lover

Hi, Yaddayadda, I have not yet been able to get a copy of the Feb 1 WT but it is interesting to note that this is the SECOND time they have made this admission.

Unfortunately I don't have the mag with me now, because I got rid of all my WTS literature when I left the cult in ' 84, [something that I badly regret, btw] but according to my notes they made a similar statement back in May 1st 1981 pg 17. This is what I wrote down: "According to the GB, they admit to ' teaching a new gospel since 1918, a gospel not taught in centuries past ' I am not sure whether the writer of that article was aware of the theological significance of referring to the WT gospel as "New" because he would then know that he was putting all subsequent WT articles under the curse of Gal 1:8,9"

From memory I feel pretty certain that they actually had the word "new" in that article. If any of our gang has that magazine maybe they could look up the quote and verify

Cheers

15

MUSIC IN WORSHIP

by Raphael in

.

something that always bothered me as a jw was the lack of praise and worship with music at meetings , yeah there were the tapes of dull and uninspiring piano music along with the same songs that noone ever felt enthusiastic about - i actually remeber feeling embarrassed whenever i had invited a bible study or interested person along to a talk and the singing was just pathetic.. singing durring the meetings was never considered a serious act of worship, but an opportunity to visit the bathroom etc.

i also found it sad that those who did have a musical talent could not use that talent in worship - no alternative forms of musical instruments were permitted inside the kh other than the wts piano tapes - no freedom of expression to worship and praise god was ever allowed , it seems that the gb want to rob jw's of the experience of joy in worshipping god.. now that i have experienced worship and praise in a spirit filled church , i can testify just how liberating freedom of expression in worship can be...i recently came across "the psalm drummers" and highly recommend getting the cd.. http://www.psalmdrummers.org/.

moggy lover

Hi, Tigerman, The word "moggy" may not be current in America, but it is fairly common in Ozzie where Britishisms are more intergrated into speech patterns. "Moggy" - a contraction for "mongrel" - is used to refer to any stray, non-breed cat. So into my life one day, walked this abandoned kitten she was half starved, half dead and I was advised by the local vet to have her put down I was told she would'nt last long

That was 14 years ago, and Moggy, as I call her, grew into probably the spolitest cat in the whole bloody world!!!

Hence the pseudonym

Cheers

30

The leaking organization, seems like the young are exiting fast.

by free2beme in

jw
friends

i ran across a witness i knew the other day at the gym and we had an open and honest discussion on exiting the organization.

he still goes and used to be an elder, but stepped down when his children were disfellowshipped.

he was actually very honest with me on some subjects, which tells me that he is probably putting together an exit foundation and looking for some bricks of information to make it solid.

moggy lover

I feel that the WTS is having the same problems today that the Communist system had yesterday, and that is a forced pressure to conform to a preconcieved image that is acceptable to the leadership.

Since the WTS is run by old men, they conceive the organisation as being in their image - a system fit for old people. The only way for a youth to suceed in this system is in fact to BE old. Talk the talk, and walk the walk. Now this is where the WTS is having the problem: It's getting harder and harder for youth to do this.

Back in the 50s and 60s when I was in my teens it was comparativly easy to do this. I, like thousands of others, found it easy to "talk the talk, walk the walk" But in the recent decades of the tele-communication revolution, when the world has indeed become a global village youths WANT to remain youths [and why not - getting old is such a hazard!!] Either the WTS leadership is too blind to notice the effects of this revolution, or they are genuinely fearful of it and are trying to ignore it.

Perhaps it is not coincedental that the places where younger people are staying on are the same places where this revolution has not yet gotten hold - ie in the less affluent parts of the world

To be frank, the only way for the WTS to plug this leak, is a drastic change in the leadership. You will need younger men [and God Forbid!!! younger women] at the very top. And I mean the Apex [where executive decisions are made] not just a sort of "token" presence to placade the need for change.

Of course I don't see this happening so - Either you be old in spirit and stay on - or you piss off

Cheers.

45

Hello everyone

by JUG in

hello everybody i just discovered this site a few days ago and am now formaly introducing my self.

i am 23 years old, i was born and raised in the truth, then about 2 1/2 ears ago i got discfellowshiped.

i didn't know anything else besides the truth.

moggy lover

Hi Jug, And welcome. Stick around you are among friends

Cheers

15

MUSIC IN WORSHIP

by Raphael in

.

something that always bothered me as a jw was the lack of praise and worship with music at meetings , yeah there were the tapes of dull and uninspiring piano music along with the same songs that noone ever felt enthusiastic about - i actually remeber feeling embarrassed whenever i had invited a bible study or interested person along to a talk and the singing was just pathetic.. singing durring the meetings was never considered a serious act of worship, but an opportunity to visit the bathroom etc.

i also found it sad that those who did have a musical talent could not use that talent in worship - no alternative forms of musical instruments were permitted inside the kh other than the wts piano tapes - no freedom of expression to worship and praise god was ever allowed , it seems that the gb want to rob jw's of the experience of joy in worshipping god.. now that i have experienced worship and praise in a spirit filled church , i can testify just how liberating freedom of expression in worship can be...i recently came across "the psalm drummers" and highly recommend getting the cd.. http://www.psalmdrummers.org/.

moggy lover

It needs to be remembered that Watchtowerism is a religion-by-rote. It consists of study and study only. At the WT study you study what the "latest" teaching to come off the printing press assembly line is. At the Ministry school you study HOW to preach, and at the SM you study WHAT to preach that particular week. The BS and PT are the same : You study. Read underline answer. Read underline answer. In an endless mind-numbing process of servitude. This ensures that every WT follower is a clone of WT HQ. A WT follower, whether he is in Alaska, or Zaire, must answer EXACTLY the same as the WT demands. This can only be ensured by a rigorous regimen of STUDY!!

Of course, this then means that WTism is NOT a religion of worship, despite the protestations of the WTS that study IS worship. This of course is absurd because, study, whether individual or communal is designed to benefit ourselves only. Worship on the other hand, stimulates a need to reach out to God.

The Book of Acts at 2:42 tells us of the four elements that constituted early Christian Worship: " [The Christians] devoted themselves to: 1:the teaching of the apostles 2:fellowship 3:breaking of bread 4:prayer " As can be seen, the first bit was not part of a "study" program since no one asked stipulated questions and no one vounteered prepared answers. However, it does emphasize that "Teaching" [rather than study] is a necessary ingredient of Christian worship, that is why "teaching" is a gift of the Spirit and not study.

The "Fellowship" mentioned here may have included the "breaking of bread" or it may have constituted a seperate function, such as singing of hymns [Eph 5:19] Whether music was supplied, or if the singing was "a capella" we don't know but as can be seen it formed a primary element of worship.

The breaking of bread is almost universally accepted by commentators as meaning the Lord's Supper Commemoration, although the WTS will disagree because they insist on an empty once-a-year celebration.

Prayer was a real element of worship as well. Not just at opening and closing of meetings. But it was spontaneous, and could be dispersed throughout the service.

In this atmosphere of communal spontaneity, the WTS finds no place, and that is the primary reason so much of their singing comes out as so flat. I swear that one of the songs from the songbook of the 60-70s had a melody that reminded me of this:"Oh dear what can the matter be, three old ladies locked in the lavatory"

Cheers

5

the early origins of 1975

by kid-A in

what is the history of the 1975 prediction?

it seems it can trace its origin all the way back to a publication in 1943.. from my watchtower antique collection, "the truth shall make you free", chapter "the count of time" 1943 edition, page 152:.

"from adams creation to the flood was 1,656 years.

moggy lover

Actually, j hoover,esq, has been so concerned with the date of Adam's creation that he has given his people SIX seperate dates to mark this event:

1 "The Time Is At Hand" said it was in 4129 bc pub in 1889. 7 years later, however

2 "The WT" said it was in 4128 bc Mar 1896 pg 53 This date lasted a whole 47 yrs spanning both the Russell and Rutherford eras. Then in 1943 came:

3 "The Truth Shall Set You Free" which discovered a 100 yr gap in chronology so the date was readjusted to read 4028 bc - pg 152 [This is the book that you're referring to] However this date lasted for just one year, because:

4 "The Kingdom Is At Hand" published in 1944, adjusted the date to now read as 4026 bc.[pg 171] To the best of my knowledge the anonymous writer provided no reason for this slight adjustment This date fared slightly better it lasted 9 years because in 1953 came:

5 "The New Heavens And The New Earth" published in 1953 which said that the date was finally set at 4025 bc [pg 364] Evidently j hoover goofed again because in 1963 came:

6 "All Scripture Is Inspired" which said that the date was in fact 4026 bc [pg 286] No further official adjustment has yet been made. To the best of my knowledge, this is still regarded as the date for Adam's creation.

Despite the fact that the date of 4026 bc was published in ' 63 it was'nt till the ' 66 DAs when the "Life Everlasting" book was published that the date hit the R&F like a bombshell. I remember that DA as if it were yesterday. The actual significance for the date of Adam's creation was officially linked to the 7000 th year of creation for the first time!!

Two years later, another bombshell! At the ' 68 DAs the "Truth" book was released. It was specifically pointed out to us that the book had 26 chapters - and Why?? Because the time was so short that all Bible studies were to be conducted for just 26 weeks [ie 6 months] then either dropped for someone else more deserving or the student had to profess a desire to be baptised

I can't begin describe the palpable excitement of those heady years.

And now?? The GB and their minions just don't give a stuff

well neither do we!!!!

Cheers